| 
		
	
	
	
		
	Posts: 121 
	Threads: 4 
	Joined: Jan 2014
	
 Reputation: 
5 
	
	
		 (05-08-2015, 10:18 PM)CityFarmer Wrote:   (05-08-2015, 09:31 PM)weijian Wrote:   (05-08-2015, 02:47 PM)Musicwhiz Wrote:  It is therefore important to always ensure one takes care of the worst case scenario through downside assessment and analysis - you cannot completely eliminate losses but it is possible to minimize their impact on your portfolio. And oh yes, dividends do help too - so make sure the companies you analyze and buy will be able to weather storms and still generate FCF and pay a dividend*. I find it especially amusing when one's way to deal with the worst case scenario is 'if it continues to go south to XXX (price), i will average down. If it continues to fall another X% and i run out of bullets, then i will just hang on for the next X years. Anyways, based on the XXX dividends that i will receive, i will break even after Y years'....These are the new fools in the market.
 
 The old fools know better after making so many mistakes (and survive and prosper for some). They abhor 'average down' because they understood the financial and emotional pain of catching that failing knife. They respect the Market because it has been 1 of his/her greatest humiliator based on the surprises it never fails to dish out every time. For example, our residential 'old fool' forummer GG has played this game long enough to hypothesize that the end of the O&G cycle will come if our 2 biggest rig builders merge in their final attempt to survive...This is what i would call a worst case scenario insight/planning.
 Worst case, is usually happen at the tail end of the bell curve, which is un-predictable, and a black-swan event. The last encounter of mine, is the Japan Earthquake, followed by a Thai Flood. I have ever imagined the two will happen months apart, and affecting the auto and electronic market in sequence, of a company I vested then.
 
 What a lesson.
  
For those events, generally the affected companies recovered fairly quickly and strongly from it, didn't they? It didn't have the contagion effect that lingers on after the countries recover.
	 
	
	
	
		
	Posts: 109 
	Threads: 0 
	Joined: Nov 2013
	
 Reputation: 
2 
	
	
		 (06-08-2015, 05:29 PM)arriyana Wrote:   (05-08-2015, 10:18 PM)CityFarmer Wrote:   (05-08-2015, 09:31 PM)weijian Wrote:   (05-08-2015, 02:47 PM)Musicwhiz Wrote:  It is therefore important to always ensure one takes care of the worst case scenario through downside assessment and analysis - you cannot completely eliminate losses but it is possible to minimize their impact on your portfolio. And oh yes, dividends do help too - so make sure the companies you analyze and buy will be able to weather storms and still generate FCF and pay a dividend*. I find it especially amusing when one's way to deal with the worst case scenario is 'if it continues to go south to XXX (price), i will average down. If it continues to fall another X% and i run out of bullets, then i will just hang on for the next X years. Anyways, based on the XXX dividends that i will receive, i will break even after Y years'....These are the new fools in the market.
 
 The old fools know better after making so many mistakes (and survive and prosper for some). They abhor 'average down' because they understood the financial and emotional pain of catching that failing knife. They respect the Market because it has been 1 of his/her greatest humiliator based on the surprises it never fails to dish out every time. For example, our residential 'old fool' forummer GG has played this game long enough to hypothesize that the end of the O&G cycle will come if our 2 biggest rig builders merge in their final attempt to survive...This is what i would call a worst case scenario insight/planning.
 Worst case, is usually happen at the tail end of the bell curve, which is un-predictable, and a black-swan event. The last encounter of mine, is the Japan Earthquake, followed by a Thai Flood. I have ever imagined the two will happen months apart, and affecting the auto and electronic market in sequence, of a company I vested then.
 
 What a lesson.
  For those events, generally the affected companies recovered fairly quickly and strongly from it, didn't they? It didn't have the contagion effect that lingers on after the countries recover.
 
Indeed, those weren't events that affected the business environment or industries structurally, the effects were relatively short-lived. What I think investors should look out for are "disruptive technologies" that can change the playing field forever, these aren't one off events that will only affect businesses temporarily, the effects are usually permanent. 
 
I do not believe that any company can maintain a "moat" forever, we see evidence of this in the form of changes in the major stock indices. The companies that make up the S&P500 or the Nasdaq100 today are very different from the ones that made up the indices just 15 years ago, this is proof that even well-run businesses can go downhill some day.
	 
	
	
	
		
	Posts: 109 
	Threads: 0 
	Joined: Nov 2013
	
 Reputation: 
2 
	
	
		The Dow in 1915:
 Amalgamated Copper Mining Company	Central Leather Company	The Peoples Gas Light and Coke Company
 American Car and Foundry Company	General Electric Company	United States Rubber Company
 American Smelting & Refining Company	General Motors Corporation ↑	United States Steel Corporation
 The American Sugar Refining Company	National Lead Company	United States Steel Corporation (Preferred)
 
 
 Dow today:
 
 3M Company	General Electric Company	Nike, Inc.
 American Express Company	The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.	Pfizer Inc.
 Apple Inc. ↑	The Home Depot, Inc.	The Procter & Gamble Company
 The Boeing Company	Intel Corporation	The Travelers Companies, Inc.
 Caterpillar Inc.	International Business Machines Corporation	UnitedHealth Group Incorporated
 Chevron Corporation	Johnson & Johnson	United Technologies Corporation
 Cisco Systems, Inc.	JPMorgan Chase & Co.	Verizon Communications Inc.
 The Coca-Cola Company	McDonald's Corporation	Visa Inc.
 E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Company	Merck & Co., Inc.	Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.
 Exxon Mobil Corporation	Microsoft Corporation	The Walt Disney Company
 
	
	
	
		
	Posts: 121 
	Threads: 4 
	Joined: Jan 2014
	
 Reputation: 
5 
	
	
		 (06-08-2015, 05:54 PM)lilvestor Wrote:   (06-08-2015, 05:29 PM)arriyana Wrote:   (05-08-2015, 10:18 PM)CityFarmer Wrote:   (05-08-2015, 09:31 PM)weijian Wrote:   (05-08-2015, 02:47 PM)Musicwhiz Wrote:  It is therefore important to always ensure one takes care of the worst case scenario through downside assessment and analysis - you cannot completely eliminate losses but it is possible to minimize their impact on your portfolio. And oh yes, dividends do help too - so make sure the companies you analyze and buy will be able to weather storms and still generate FCF and pay a dividend*. I find it especially amusing when one's way to deal with the worst case scenario is 'if it continues to go south to XXX (price), i will average down. If it continues to fall another X% and i run out of bullets, then i will just hang on for the next X years. Anyways, based on the XXX dividends that i will receive, i will break even after Y years'....These are the new fools in the market.
 
 The old fools know better after making so many mistakes (and survive and prosper for some). They abhor 'average down' because they understood the financial and emotional pain of catching that failing knife. They respect the Market because it has been 1 of his/her greatest humiliator based on the surprises it never fails to dish out every time. For example, our residential 'old fool' forummer GG has played this game long enough to hypothesize that the end of the O&G cycle will come if our 2 biggest rig builders merge in their final attempt to survive...This is what i would call a worst case scenario insight/planning.
 Worst case, is usually happen at the tail end of the bell curve, which is un-predictable, and a black-swan event. The last encounter of mine, is the Japan Earthquake, followed by a Thai Flood. I have ever imagined the two will happen months apart, and affecting the auto and electronic market in sequence, of a company I vested then.
 
 What a lesson.
  For those events, generally the affected companies recovered fairly quickly and strongly from it, didn't they? It didn't have the contagion effect that lingers on after the countries recover.
 Indeed, those weren't events that affected the business environment or industries structurally, the effects were relatively short-lived. What I think investors should look out for are "disruptive technologies" that can change the playing field forever, these aren't one off events that will only affect businesses temporarily, the effects are usually permanent.
 
 I do not believe that any company can maintain a "moat" forever, we see evidence of this in the form of changes in the major stock indices. The companies that make up the S&P500 or the Nasdaq100 today are very different from the ones that made up the indices just 15 years ago, this is proof that even well-run businesses can go downhill some day.
 
Agreed. I think the spirit of value investing is buying into a company that can survive and emerge from a black swan event, with the assumption that you cannot predict a black swan event. If the company survives through, it usually will emerge stronger after the shakeout of the weaker players.
 
Losing a moat is significantly more painful but a moat loss gives you time to react. Most moat is not lost overnight but after years of technological advancements.
	 
	
	
	
		
	Posts: 2,512 
	Threads: 24 
	Joined: Sep 2010
	
 Reputation: 
19 
	
	
		or rather, wait for blakc swan event and buy-in?    
remembered that OCBC was $4++ GFC2009,   
1) Try NOT to LOSE money!2) Do NOT SELL in BEAR, BUY-BUY-BUY! invest in managements/companies that does the same!
 3) CASH in hand is KING in BEAR!
 4) In BULL, SELL-SELL-SELL!
 
	
	
	
		
	Posts: 2,746 
	Threads: 23 
	Joined: Mar 2013
	
 Reputation: 
25 
	
		
		
		07-08-2015, 11:56 AM 
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2015, 11:56 AM by opmi.)
		
	 
		to catch durians during crises, you have to have cash. Either from half-invested portfolio OR a judgement call to go cash. Fully invested portfolio cannot catch durians one.
 I am guessing most VBs here went into GFC with fully invested and ride it out. Seldom heard of anyone sold out in 07 or 08.
 
"... but quitting while you're ahead is not the same as quitting." - Quote from the movie American Gangster
 
	
	
	
		
	Posts: 9,841 
	Threads: 711 
	Joined: Mar 2012
	
 Reputation: 
64 
	
		
		
		08-08-2015, 04:22 PM 
(This post was last modified: 10-08-2015, 09:00 PM by CityFarmer.)
		
	 
		 (07-08-2015, 11:56 AM)opmi Wrote:  to catch durians during crises, you have to have cash. Either from half-invested portfolio OR a judgement call to go cash. Fully invested portfolio cannot catch durians one.
 I am guessing most VBs here went into GFC with fully invested and ride it out. Seldom heard of anyone sold out in 07 or 08.
 
Catching "durians", means catching during a crisis of "durian" market or a "durian" company, rather than overall market. In other words, recycling of capital, is possible to catch the "durian", rather ONLY with reserved cash, IMO.
 
This is the approach followed.
	 
“夏则资皮,冬则资纱,旱则资船,水则资车” - 范蠡
 
	
	
	
		
	Posts: 4,348 
	Threads: 96 
	Joined: Aug 2011
	
 Reputation: 
85 
	
	
		There is a season for everything. Sometimes certain durian trees mature faster and drop unilaterally. But sometimes when the soil is fertile, weather accomodative and the fruit bat population is large enough to pollineate entire tracts of durian plantations, durian season will be here!    
If you are a durian connoisseur (ie. you can differentiate a D24 from a D13), you will have fun all year around. If you believe you are not good enough and continue to get conned by those expert durian ah beng sellers (in geylang), better to wait for durian season to enjoy the fix and save all those frustration.
	
I am not a certified financial advisor and so nothing of what I say should be construed as financial advice. Please consult a certified financial advisor for advice instead.
 |